Stripped in Heaven

Not too long ago I went to a friend's church for their Wednesday night meeting where they talked about what heaven would be like.  There were many views, some obviously shaped from Sunday School teachings, others hopeful aspirations.  But there was one answer that I found intriguing. Luke, one of the pastors of the church (who also wears several other hats) made the statement that he wondered what it would be like in heaven when all those parts of him that didn't fit, or belong in heaven were stripped away. THEN - what would heaven be like?

This past Saturday night, Luke and I found ourselves on the computer at the same time, and through the divine miracle that is Google, we got into an IM chat. For a little while we chatted about some innocuous stuff - my new Ipod, computer stuff and so on. After a while we began chatting about his Wednesday night statement. It was a pretty interesting conversation, so we thought we'd share it here. I cut out the irrelevant, and too personal stuff, and corrected some of the typos, and I left in some bits of the natural conversation, but in essence - here's the conversation as it went. As with all posts on this site, I encourage you to write your comments, ask questions, argue, agree - whatever you'd like to do!

11:59 PM me: one more question, when you were speaking of the "stripping away" the other night - I've read a thought like that before, Merton or McLaren? I find that thought rather provocative!

11:59 PM Luke: yes. I've been thinking recently about it after listening to Rob Bell's series called "The Flames of Heaven"

12:00 AM CS Lewis and Dallas Willard allude to it. Almost a purgatory of sorts, but it is a change that must take place.

12:01 AM 1 Cor 3 also hints at it - 11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

12:02 AM me: bell's series podcasted? I've been thinking about that a lot since you said it, and I'm not so sure I like it.

12:03 AM me: It's a pretty scary thought. Like maybe it might be a bit more comfortable if there would be less stripped away.

12:05 AM Luke: I am struggling with the idea. What if all I am living for is temporal, and suddenly (or slow burn) all the temporal is gone. What am I left with other than my redeemed soul? How comfortable will I be in my own skin?

12:06 AM Luke: You have to download directlyhttp://www.mhbcmi.org/listen/

12:08 AM Luke: Do you think I’m being heretical or is it just disturbing?

12:10 AM me: Disturbing! I've read that somewhere before, and I remember being very uncomfortable with it. Simply because if I take a long hard look (and really not that long OR hard), ugh! Leaves me in a kind of dead wall reverie.

12:13 AM Luke: Why change now it will be instantaneous later? We will be changed, but painless has not been promised.

12:15 AM I am doing some drum practice in between posts, so be patient if I lag. I napped so I'll be up till 1 or so.

12:17 AM me: Yeah, but I keep thinking about what it would be like to be more like Jesus. What kind of life would that be? Wed. night Dan asked what quality of Jesus... and all I kept thinking was that I'd need them all. Most of the time I feel like I have NONE! So where would that leave me in a heaven where all the dross is stripped away? So while seeking to be more like Christ may seem selfish, the alternative under this way of thinking would leave me on the outside looking in.

12:20 AM So, rather than throwing my arms up and saying what's the use, I find myself thinking the last few days that all of this is my choice. I make my life what I choose it to be. I am struggling these past couple of days thinking that this is a much more compelling reason to really live the 2 great commandments than merely avoiding hell and gaining heaven.

12:21 AM Luke: Christ gives freely to all.. but only if accepted by their will. If we fail to accept his gifts now, will it immediately be easier later? Each day we have opportunity to receive or reject Christ- that's all we need concern ourselves with. I think John 15 is a much more potent summary of salvation than Romans 3

12:22 AM Luke: To affirm your proposition.

12:24 AM Luke: If I am not changed in the process, what benefit is heaven? Most of my angst is internal.

12:26 AM me: Exactly! I think we're thinking exactly the same thing! John 15 is infinitely better! I have thought that for quite some time, but I always fear the old heretic moniker. Putting on the new life in Christ becomes so much more meaningful. Brings a whole new meaning to working out our own salvation

12:26 AM Luke: Rather than "I make my life what I choose it to be." I would rather think of it as "I receive the life that I choose it to be."

12:27 AM me: receive in what sense?

12:28 AM me: receive from whom?

12:28 AM Luke: Hey, pop the chat out of the window and you can full-screen it.
cool

12:29 AM Luke: It is great have these conversations archived. Kind of like live interactive journaling.
Just a couple clicks away from publishing my struggles.

12:30 AM me: full screen is cool!!! See, I'm not so sure how much we actually receive. You familiar with open theism?

12:31 AM Luke: like - future to be determined by my actions - God gave and stepped back?

12:33 AM me: That's part of it. I'm really not an open theist, but I do subscribe to some of their ideas.

12:39 AM me: see, I think too much has been made of "receiving” the gift of god. Everywhere I look in the Bibel, God presents man with choices, not so much giving gifts. So we choose how we will live from moment to moment.

12:40 AM Luke: And our choices are not "works" but really the actual state of our souls.

12:41 AM Where'd you get your copy of the "Bibel"

12:41 AM me: of course he has given us incredible gifts, life itself, a shot at eternal life, gifts of the spirit, etc. Exactly! We cannot earn salvation itself, but we "Work out our salvation!
me: if you must know, Bibel is German for Bible! LOL

12:42 AM Luke: I agree totally.

12:43 AM Luke: salvation is totally integrated with life.
we cannot compartmentalize it.

12:44 AM Luke: Where did we go wrong in Christianity?
me: so an integrated salvation becomes a series of localized choices

12:45 AM Luke: not salvation itself

12:46 AM Luke: not even localized choices, it cannot even be isolated like that. It is life itself. Every leaning of the heart is a detour or a more direct path - all enabled and guided by God as much as we will it.

12:47 AM Luke: That is how some people may have chosen Christ without consciously choosing.
It gives a chance to everyone.

12:52 AM me: When you were learning how to play the piano, did your fingers automatically go to the right keys? Probably not. You had to make choices on where to place your fingers, what order to press the keys, how hard, etc, etc. Only after time and practice did it become more "natural". When we are new to the "Christ-thing" I believe we really do learn how to be Christ-like. As far as people may have chosen Christ without consciously choosing, that's something I still haven't worked out altogether. Fascinating about your uncle-something. I'd like to hear more about that!

12:53 AM Luke: Exactly... the art of following Christ.